Leon Black set up Apollo Management in 1990 to invest in buy-out deals and the debt of troubled companies. Apollo now has about $45bn under management, with a war chest of $13bn to take advantage of new opportunities at a time of unprecedented volatility and distress in the markets.
While other firms have often run into trouble because of ill-thought out diversifications, Mr Black has been judicious in his expansion and is currently looking at investing more in commodities and commodity companies.
Mr Black's early career was at the old Drexel Burnham Lambert, a pioneer in making debt capital available to companies with low credit ratings, where he learnt the discipline of debt investment.
From his office overlooking Central Park he can see many of the institutions on whose boards he sits, including the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Asia Society and Mount Sinai Hospital. Mr Black graduated from Dartmouth College and received his MBA from Harvard.
Mr Black sees little sign of reaching the bottom of the market soon, predicted more challenges in commercial real estate, and said the name of the game in general is surviving to play another day.
How does this macro cycle compare to previous macro cycles?
I would have to say that in my business career, which now spans some 32 years, this has to be the worst economic cycle that I've ever experienced. It is really affecting every asset class, every industry, maybe with the exception of government workers .
When did you start to get nervous?
I guess that at Apollo, which is both in private equity and in a number of credit funds, we first started seeing a lot of credit tremors and nervousness in the summer of 2007.
Apollo is kind of a fund for all seasons, because on the private equity side you can take advantage of times when conditions are good and on the distressed debt side you can profit when times are bad.
What are the signs you will look for that say the bottom is near, and do you see any today?
I wouldn't call them lights at the end of the tunnel, I would say they're more flashes in the dark right now. The banks [are] really only part of the way through. They started with the terrible corporate credit problems they had to get off their balance sheet.
However, when you then look at the other things on their balance sheet: it's credit card debt and student loans . . . [on] residential mortgages they are halfway through, probably they have unloaded or written off half a trillion there. There is probably another half a trillion to go.
And then you have the black hole of commercial real estate, and that hasn't happened yet. Usually, that lags 12 to 18 months [behind] the rest of the financial problems and there you are sitting with $4 trillion of debt and you know not all of it is bad but a lot of it is diminished, and that really hasn't yet been addressed.
What you suggest about commercial real estate would lead me to believe that there is, in fact, a whole other leg down?
Ah, there well might be, and that is one of the big question marks out there in terms of what still has to be addressed and how big a hole there is to cover. Some people have estimated [the additonal bank clean-up] at $1 trillion but I think that it could be as much as $2 trillion.
You grew up in a world of figuring out what companies had too much debt, how to refinance that debt. What do you see happening to the defaults in this cycle?
In general, defaults have to go up. If you look at JP Morgan's expert predictions you know they are talking of 10 per cent to 15 per cent and that's probably right. Very high prices were paid for companies and they were bought with a lot of debt although some of the debt has no default triggers so [it] really depends on which sectors and which companies you're looking at.
Where earnings are down, cash flow is down, and you have a lot of leverage, there will be more defaults. There are some exceptions to that and a lot of the companies that were financed in the past few years had varied capital flexible structures, and therefore I believe many of them will find ways to delever outside of bankruptcy to get through to a recovery.
This is what you're good at, finding opportunities in the debt. But how perilous is that game now?
I think it's time for defence and offence. On defence, the focus on existing portfolio companies is to take out costs, manage capital better and capture debt discount to delever the balance sheet. On offence, there are great opportunities in distressed for those with dry powder, but it isn't for the faint of heart due to mark to market considerations and intercreditor disagreements.
So, what does the world look like when we come out?
Probably, there will be more regulation. Some of it will be good. I think some of it will be bad and will make doing business probably harder. I think companies will have to put more equity into deals, so that they will be less leveraged.
In order for that to happen, the equity markets, the prices, will have to adjust because otherwise the math just doesn't work. You know, if you've paid less for the asset, you can still make the math work very well in terms of getting good returns.
When do you shift to more offensive mode? When do you say, "this is the right time to go in with both hands"?
It will be when I feel that we have done everything we can that is possible for our existing portfolios, and that they are really on even keels, and that our investors are protected, and we've stabilised all those situations. Then, and only then, will we shift to playing full offence.
Source.
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